Sexism at Rocky

[jrising]

Elaina is quitting the show for a variety of reasons, but the relevant one is sexism at Rocky. She convinced me that the problem is extensive, but I don't know how to respect those concerns and still encourage the individual creative talents and sexualities of our members and the boundary-pushing of the show. But I think we can find a way, and enjoy our work better for reaching for it.

Sexism has become a party-crashing term. People worry that if they acknowledge it, it will make every decision more difficult and force us to be more conservative. It shouldn't. Sexism itself-- the faulty societally-ingrained role preconceptions we have-- is inherently incredibly conservative and creativity-blocking. By harboring it, we cripple the sexual and individual potential of our members.

I think that the best solution to the sexism problem has to do with promoting an attitude at the show, not by making rules, and I think we can do it, because we're strong, freely-sexual people who want to promote sexual equality. This attitude would be characterized by honest recognition of how our actions and shows play out sexual stereotypes, and the constant search for what's beyond them.

One aspect of this attitude might be that men at Rocky would be encouraged (expected) to put themselves on sexual display as much as women. It will make us better men. Another is that we should consider the sexism-jostling potential of our preshows. We can get more out of challenging our audience than playing to its fantasies.

Next week: How to get the most out of a rape fantasy...

Comments

[asmodai.livejournal.com]

OOPS! I pressed "post" before finishing.

I wanted to ask for more of your thoughts of the NATURE of sexism at rocky. Is it explicit or implicit? Are you noticing misogynistic tendencies, or more passive objectification?

[jrising.livejournal.com]

While I want people to be concerned, I didn't want to start by presenting a list of grievances because it could make them resent the concern. That's why I started with a argument for why we should welcome sexism-fighting.

That said, I think it's implicit (which is worse here than explicit) and pervasive. We have problems with sex-role expectations and objectification within the group, and support traditional sex roles and misogyny in our shows.

Ultimately, I don't think that any particular preshow (or person) is at fault-- preshows aren't supposed to be balanced. But we consistently show women as sex objects and play to traditional male fantasies and that's a problem.

[asmodai.livejournal.com]

Good thought. I'll delete my earlier comment so as to not place blame on anybody, and avoid probably useless tangents.

[mals13.livejournal.com]

I can see where she is coming from, but on the other hand this is the way it has been forever. There is a general understanding between all of us that, yeah, we are here to entertain and if violence and sex is a form of entertainment that gets the best reaction, then so be it. If it really were a problem, more girls would be complaining about the sexist factors of the show instead of offering themselves up to get up on stage and strip for something as petty as Trixie. Rocky has always had a "strip club" mentality, that I've noticed. And we all understand that no one is out to hurt one another; sure there is lots of sexual harassment floating around the show, but us girls at the show know that it's all in good fun. Ok, yeah, some guys are over-the-top in their comments and gestures, but it's part of the game of Rocky.

It's too bad that we have to lose someone over an issue like this, but if she really feels this way then it's not the environment for her.

[transparencies.livejournal.com]

wow, i hate to have to rip into a friend like this, but your whole comment really, really, really irks me. that attitude is what allows a whole lot of the wrongs in the world to keep on going.

"but on the other hand this is the way it has been forever."

"If it really were a problem, more girls would be complaining"

"sure there is lots of sexual harassment floating around the show, but us girls at the show know that it's all in good fun."

yeah, if people feel offended, they should speak up. you're absolutely right. but a whole lot of the time, people feel too threatened to do so. no one wants to be the buzz kill who points out how offensive and wrong the actions of their friends are and how harmful to the mentalities of the cast and the audience. something wrong isn't made right simply because no one is willing to speak against it. it could mean it's so wrong that it's potentially dangerous.

[revolos55.livejournal.com]

Well this is the first I've heard of this problem. That's why we have the yellow rule. You don't have to get naked if you don't want to. But maybe what I think of as a genuine appreciation for the female form, or a specific female form, someone else considers harassment. I was always under the impression that any "ogling" or comments of a sexual nature I made were taken as compliments, and done in good humor. I would hope that people would tell me otherwise.

As for some sort of equal-opportunity male objectification, I'm fairly sure that shirtless o'clock is gender neutral, and while full frontal male nudity has experienced a radical drop in frequency since Acid left, I have seen more penises since joining the show than I had in the entirety of my 22 years of life before that point.

I honestly had no idea that this was an issue at the show. I thought it was fairly well understood that Rocky is an explicitly sexual atmosphere, and that people were free to express themselves in that manner. And this is directed at no one in particular, but you really can't come to the Rocky Horror Picture Show dressed in a shelf-making corset and underwear if you're going to me offended by someone commenting on your boobs. I'm not saying it's permissible for someone to lay hands on, or be outright harassing, and I'm not saying that "she's asking for it", but it's just plain common sense. If you don't want to hear sexual comments, don't come to Rocky.

I don't know if this makes me sound like a lecher or a misogynist, or whatever, but I knew what Rocky was when I joined, and if I've had a problem with something I've spoken up. I'm glad that Elaina has too, and I'm sorry that she's been having problems. If I'd known I needed to change my behavior towards her I would have, and like I said, I'd hope that if anyone else had a problem with something I did or said, they'd tell me. But as far as I knew I hadn't stepped on anyone's toes or offended their sensibilities.

[littlenewj.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately any views on anything of a moral standpoint are purely relative. Perception is reality. Where one sees red another can see a half naked woman dancing. In essence WYSIWYG *shrug*

For now...

[5411tech.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'll say more later, but for now I wanted to say that I didn't want to make an issue out of this. I'm aware that everyone engaging in the behaviors which I consider to be promoting sexist attitudes are doing so of their own volition. I have other reasons for leaving the show (mostly school) and everyone is quite right in saying that if I have a problem with Rocky, it may not be the atmosphere for me. In general, free expression of sexuality works for me, sexist attitudes and objectification of women do not.

For the record, I wasn't complaining about any personal comments or harrassment, as I've neither witnessed nor experienced any. Is that something others have experienced?

Re: For now...

[transparencies.livejournal.com]

in my time at the show (hi, i'm shannon, by the way. i was head of costumes for a few years) i was asked by more than one woman for help, both at the show and at parties, in remaining clothed and not compromised in other ways. some of their discomfort was in small, subtle things. some was a lot more blatant and harmful and they felt unable to fend off pressure alone.

and this topic, among other more pressing (for me) things, is one of the reasons i left. not the main reason but it was a concern. and was not something i've ever felt comfortable voicing before now.

Re: For now...

[5411tech.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to hear that my (well, Jimmy's) speaking up has encouraged others to do so. I think that the expectations for women at Rocky are a lot more well-defined than people realize, and that doesn't promote the FREE expression of sexuality we're all aiming for.

Re: No Really!

[jrising.livejournal.com]

I'll respond to the "sex sells" issue further below. Sexuality at the show is fantastic-- I think we should be as blatantly sexual as possible. All of us, not just the women. I learned from you that honest sexuality isn't sexist-- in fact, it doesn't respect any of the boundaries we'd like to box ourselves and others into.

We should have sexual men and women strutting their own sexuality, not sex objects on display trying to conform to some traditional model of what men want. Men at Rocky don't get as good of reactions because we haven't learned how, and we aren't being asked to.

[jrising.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that it's voluntary and self-perpetuated by the women at Rocky, and that makes it a lot better than it could be. I don't think the problem is sexual harassment, or has much to do with how women at Rocky want to be sexual. The problem is in the male-oriented atmosphere, the huge discrepancy in expectations between women and men, and how we're portraying sexuality to our audience.

Sex and violence get a great reaction, and I think we should have lots of both, but we aren't here to just please the crowd. Rocky is supposed to be extreme in its sexuality, not traditional. And as long as we expect sexuality to be primarily the job of women, we're never going to learn how to get the same strong reactions out of men being sexual.

Re: 2 cents

[jrising.livejournal.com]

Sex at Rocky isn't just about pleasing the crowd, and I don't think that's what they pay us for. We *should* offend people and shake them up. If people wanted traditional male-slobbering sex, they would go to a strip club. They come to us because we're supposed to have something about sexuality that you can never get from traditional society.

Yes, women are beautiful and sexual and they make people horny. Men could be too, if we tried. But we aren't being asked to try.

Honestly, I don't think people get that turned on by women as sex objects. They respond, because they know they're supposed to. But true sexuality is far more potent and challenging, and done right will get a better reaction.

[overstim.livejournal.com]

Men should be WELCOME to put themselves on display as much as women. EXPECTING anyone to be put on display is the exact opposite of what youre trying to accomplish here.

how would you feel if i said "Women at Rocky should be EXPECTED to put themselves on sexual display?"

Sexism is the INEQUALITY of men and women. Men and women ARE inequal. For one thin,g i think if you poll men AND owmen youll find that women are considered way hotter. Men like looking at women. Women like looking a women. Gay men dont even mind looking at women. just look at the fashion industry. Men are just around ot open jars and kill spiders.

Am I being facetious? of course. But hopefully you get my point. Rocky is about sex and women are sexy. No one has EVER discouraged a preshow with men strutting their stuff. in fact, one of the preshows weve put up more than any other is "sit on my face", which normally features a row of guys in nothing but aprons shaking their hairy man-asses. Full Monty was pretty kickass, too.

Instead of just flatly demanding that men bring on the sexah, why dont you propose some man-centric preshows? I for one support the idea 100%. Men can be hot. just not this one.

I dont think the problem at Rocky is encouraging women to be naked and sexy. Objectifying women is only a bad thing if they are PRESSURED into it. that is the real danger at Rocky, the peer pressure. And sometimes there is some, and I try my best to discourage it. I like when Frank, during monologue, encourages the virgins to "dance nasty" and "do waht comes naturally". I HATE when Frank just says "Be a stripper". That impies an obligation to strip, which some arent comfy with. its all in the wording.

Women AND men should feel welcome and encouraged to express themselves how they see fit. Women and men should be wlecome to objectify and Be objectified. But NO ONE, EVER, should feel "expected" or pressured to do anything.

If it harm none, do as thou wilt.

[jrising.livejournal.com]

I don't think the problem is with the reactions that women in shelf-making corsets get; when a woman wants to say "look at me", we shouldn't be ashamed to ogle. But if women are almost always the ones being looked at and men are just doing the looking, we aren't doing honest sexuality.

Strong women, like you, have no problem drawing their boundaries, and I think we're fairly good at respecting those. But men at Rocky never have that problem: we aren't asked to be outwardly sexual the way women are. I hope that women at Rocky never feel used sexually, but I'm sure some do, and I'm pretty sure men never do.

Finally, I think we present sex in a much more sexist way to our audience than we have within the cast. Rocky is about the love, and we have some obligation to our audience to not leave them with huge misconceptions about hot the love works.

[jrising.livejournal.com]

Perception is reality, and that's the problem. We get to choose/construct our morality-- so why are we settling for one that makes sex objects of women?

Re: For now...

[jrising.livejournal.com]

I suspected this was happening, and I'm glad to finally hear about it. I'd like to think that we're careful to say, "You don't have to do anything that you don't feel comfortable with," but there's so much pressure for women to display themselves that it can't even out.

Some kinds of pressures are good; I think we should be pushing eachother to be more sexual. But it can't be one-sided, and it should never be felt as "compromising".

[5411tech.livejournal.com]

The problem is when women ARE expected to put themselves on display, either explicitly or, as I think is more the case here, implicitly. Just saying someone has the right to refuse doesn't mean the expectations aren't there, and aren't uncomfortably pervasive. I've only been at Rocky about 3 months, but in that time I've seen women expected and/or pressured to put themselves on display sexually, and I've seen that happen to men, oh, about never. I think it either needs to happen to everyone, or not at all.

[overstim.livejournal.com]

I agree. I was trying to say that above. But as soon as you pepper your discussion with words like "sexism" and"objectification", people are going to go nuts and miss the point. The problem, and I feel its minor, but it IS present, is the peer pressure. And thats something that we all just need to stay aware of and work together to eliminate.

But youre kidding yourself if you think it can be eliminated completely, not when youre around a whole bunch of sexually charged and intoxicated people. its par for the course. If I go to Tennessee, Im going to be pressured to read the bible. If I go to Circuit City, Im going to be pressured to buy a protection plan. And If i go to Rocky, Ive got to expect to be pressured to be sexy, and if I cant handle that, I should step away. I think we do a DAMN good job of keeping the peer pressure to about 1/100% of, say, your average frat house of landsdowne st club. But its something we should remain aware of.

Re: 2 cents

[overstim.livejournal.com]

this is the best post so far. bravo.

I declare that January is DICK MONTH!!!

lets start working on some preshows. Ill even come to meetings.

[jrising.livejournal.com]

You're probably right that no one should be "expected" to do anything, but Rocky is about exploring sexuality, and we should all be encouraged to do that.

Yes, men and women are unequal, and I *love* looking at women, and I don't know if men strutting their stuff can ever be as good. But I don't think we try that much. Even if women are doing everything totally voluntarily, we can't let it become an expectation that if someone is going to put themselves on display, it'll be a woman.

I'm not proposing putting pressures on guys because I think there should be a *new* pressure at Rocky. Rocky drives people to be sexual, whatever equipment you have. But currently it does it so differently for men and women as to be insulting.

And I do plan on doing some role-modeling in this, including finding some preshows and dressing up more for the show. And I want to do a sexy-guy striptease trixie sometime soon, but I need to learn how first.

[elctric-mayhem.livejournal.com]

I want to speak logistically about 2 points.
1) It's Rocky. And everyone seems to be delving in far too seriously to our moral and ethical obligations to our audience.

2) We put up what ideas we have, that we can make good. More people come up with ideas around scantily clad dancing girls, than scantily clad dancing guys. We have more hot women that can dance, than hot guys that can dance. And that's what we put on a show with. When good preshows come up involving stripping guys down, we use them. Full Monty, and Sit On My Face for examples.

Have as much idealogical debate as you want. Or suggest specific, yet stage-worthy ideas for things that balance out the portrayal of genders. But I think to read Sexism and Misogyny into what we do is both extreme and unnecessary.

Re: For now...

[transparencies.livejournal.com]

agreed. open sexuality is a great thing and it's good for us to encourage that in each other. encourage, though, not force. i just tend to think that voluntary nudity is a whole lot sexier than forced nudity. :-)

[transparencies.livejournal.com]

well, firstly, i think that all people have certain moral and ethical obligations and we can't adjust them radically to suit our needs, even relative to our surroundings. but i don't know that i want to deeply into that conversation right now.

i've never really seen partial male nudity discouraged at the show either. but i think the issue here is the fact that it's expected of women. it's not simply an open invitation to be naked and dancing and seductive. it's very much expected. and that same expectation doesn't hold true for men. there's a pressure on women at rocky to be sex objects. there's an opportunity for men but that's all.

[asavitzk.livejournal.com]

There's so much response to this in my head right now but it's hard to put it down on pixels so I'm sorry if it seems incomplete.

I never hired a new person on tech or cast and "expected" them to be a sex object. I hope none of them ever felt that way because they never said anything to me (which takes me back to the whole idea of personal responsibility...). There is certainly a constant atmosphere that if a woman wants to get naked that everyone will love that and it's an easy ego boost for alot of women who join the show but what's wrong with that? At least at Rocky we'll still learn their name and talk to them.

And in any case, it can be like that for men too. Look at Jim Allen. :)